I'd like to have a new forum to discuss the structure of the Catholic Church, and how it evades its responsibilities and how we can look at legislation to make it more responsible and responsive to the government and society.

We live in a "christian society" and our laws are based on the 10 commandments. What is happening in "the church" today regarding sexual abuse and the way it is being handled is not acceptable and really brings into focus a lot of issues regarding the actions of "the church" generally. If "the church" wants a special place in our society then it must achieve community standards, and in this case I don't think it has.

You can't have an organization marching around as "the church" getting tax breaks because it is "religious" and pulling the moral high ground, and then becoming a law unto themselves when things go wrong.

I would like a place where people can share ideas on how to rationalise and normalise this entity called "the church", and make it healthy, if this needs to be done from the outside so be it, as they don't seem to want to do it from the inside.

It would be interesting to look at all the legislation pertaining to "the church".....overdue I am thinking

---

.

I guess this is one place to start. This is the Catholic website, with some information on how it is structured.

http://www.catholic.org.au/

Anyone with other information is welcome to contribute.

I don't want to make this forum an argument about religion. Rather an information gathering to see how "the church" can be made more accountable to the community.

After all "the church" is a human invention ...

The following article appeared in the May 11, 2006 issue of The Wanderer Catholic newspaper. It was written by news editor Paul Likoudis, and is not available on the paper's Web site. For subscription information, call 651-224-5733.


The potential ramifications of Justice G. Norman Glaude's ruling are enormous for Catholics, said Sylvia MacEachern, an Ottawa-area Catholic who has been watching with intense interest the hearings of the Cornwall inquiry held at the Weave Shed, a former cotton mill in this down-and-out city.

"What I see the government doing through Justice Glaude is bringing the Catholic Church, and eventually all churches and organized religions, under the mantle of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and this could mean that the government has authority to regulate all matter of internal Church governance, specifically as it relates to issues of 'equality' and 'discrimination,'" she told The Wanderer in a telephone interview.

Previously, the Church, and all other religious organizations, were considered "private," and beyond the reach of governmental interference.

The Justice's ground-breaking decision, some observers suspect, was forced upon him by the mandate of the Provincial Liberal government to investigate male sexual abuse in cornwall without probing the Diocese of Alexandria cornwall.

http://tor.id.au/article.php?story=20070831110618307&query=Conrwall%2Binquiry

---

.

So, a western industrialized country, basically Christian, has finally bitten the bullet, so to speak.

The ramifications of this will be enormous.

It is not before time, a new broom is need in this country.

I wonder if any of the Bishops in this country have a conscience. One wonders why they haven't taken any action over this matter of sexual abuse.

George Pell doesnt seem to have a conscience and he is still there, so I guess the bishops don't care one way or the other.

The Catholic church is run on much the same lines as the Mafia. It is not actually a church but a big organisation that has been stomping on people since its very beginning. It's main interest was power and it's army marched on anyone that got in its way, be it king or country. It has amassed an enormous wealth with its own city and bank.

The church during the 1300's
"Overall the public life of leading church members resembled more those of princes rather than members of the clergy. This splendor and corruption at the head of the Church found its way to the lower ranks: when a bishop had to pay up to a year's income for gaining a benefice, he sought ways of raising this money from his new office. This was taken to extremes by the pardoners who sold absolutions for all kinds of sins to the poor. Where pardoners were hated but needed to redeem one's soul, the friars who failed to follow a Christian path by failing their vows of chastity and poverty were despised"

I really can't see much difference in todays church. There are those that lead and others that want to be lead. This allows men like Pell to become head of the Catholic Church in Australia, not because he is good but because he wants power and he adjusts his ideas to each given situation. This type of situation has been the norm for a long, long time.

Now we have the likes of TOR, who I call "Jack the Giant Killers. These men are upsetting the way the church is run because for years they have been moving abusers around parishes and state hoping they would never get caught but like most things, you past life catches up with you and often in court. If Pell had his way, all the Jacks would be mowed down with machine guns just as the Mafia has down. He will do anything to keep his power absolute.

As far as money and paying goes, this is another thing. The church thinks if it hands out a pittance of money, victims will gab it with both hands and move on. It has no idea that these people want justice. The church things it is above all things. They have the top finance men, top barristers etc, top pysc. Drs who will manipulate and undermind anything you say to them.

The church is a corrupt business without a shred of dignity, intergity or honesty when it comes to money.

Im enjoying reading this website but I really wonder what good the complainers do in society.

Are they perfect?

Let who who has done nothing wrong cast the first stone

http://tor.id.au/article.php?story=20081102105623905

Complainers in a society alert people to things that are not right.

We are lucky, we live in a democracy where we have a right to freedom of speech, and also have regulations to protect people from defamation etc.

Everyone has made mistakes, and probably done a few things wrong...no one would deny that.

But public institutions and other social groupings need to be vetted on occasion to make sure that they are upholding community standards, and legal requirements.

Churches are not exempt from this, or shouldn't be. If religious standards are not in compliance with the legal requirements of the country, they need to be looked at and thoroughly examined.

People who complain about things that they have no power to change, are alerting other people about situations where perhaps greater powers, available to all people in a democracy, need to be brought into play.

We don't live in a Theocracy, where the church has all the power over people. We have a healthy separation between the church and state. at least in theory.

A lot of our parliamentarians are members of religious groups. Indeed in the 40's 50's and 60's the catholic church had a political wing, called the Democratic Labor Party, which sought to influence the parliament and the legislature to adopt Catholic Principles.

In the sixties, in N.S.W. there was a push to create a "Catholic State" in the New England area of N.S.W.

Some revival of the Democratic Labor Party occurred in the last Senate election in Vic.

It is also worth noting that for years, in N.S.W. and other states only Catholics could head the Labor party or the Trade Unions.

The Police commissioners job in N.S.W. balanced between the Masons and Catholics

So we have a history in this country of a very active religious lobby in our governing bodies.

All these organisations naturally seek to protect their own, that is human nature, however this becomes a concern, when it is revealed that the catholic church has been covering up sexual abuse, by moving priests and brothers around parishes, and not notifying the police of these allegations.

If they have taken the responsibility to move these people and I would think it follows that they have a responsibility to report the allegations.

Covering up allegations of sexual abuse is illegal. To date, I have read or heard nothing about any investigation into these cover ups, although they have been widely published in the main stream media.

A lot of this was aired during and after the World Youth Day celebrations, and dismissed as "complaints by unhappy people" by members of the church.

I can tell you that the catholic people I know were very disappointed by the popes publicity stunt, a meager apology to a couple of people at the end of the tour.

And the apology by Pell was seen as very hollow indeed. An apology, without taking responsibility and seeking to right a wrong, is really worth nothing.

This matter of sexual abuse is a huge issue with in the church, not just a few complaints.

It involves the active hiding of the most terrible crime, attacking children and young vulnerable people, by people purporting to have a special relationship with god.

So complainers have a role in society, and I hope they never die away.

The freedom to complain is also the freedom to practice religion in this democracy, but it can't extend to the freedom to abuse, and not be charged.

Yes we all make mistakes in some way. After all "He who makes no mistakes makes nothing "

I remember a joke about this.
"Jesus was teaching one day and as he walked along he came to some people about to stone a person to death. He said "He without sin cast the first stone" Just then a stone hit the man right in the middle of the forehead knocking him to the ground. Jesus turned round and said "Thanks Mum"

Most of us have to pay for our mistakes in some way and do not have the backing of the Church to hide our sins and protect, shield and lie for us.

This is the problem with the Church. It will not own its mistakes. It wants to pass the buck. No way does the buck stay with them. They are very cunning and conniving when they find themselves in deep sh....

Some people think it is all about the money and that is why the church hides and protects the evil creatures that hide in its depth. It is not about money at all because they could just pay out a few thousand if that is what it takes to keep people quiet, they have done this before and will continue to do it. Everything is secret with them. You have to sign the piece of paper to say you will never discuss or disclose what you signed etc. This way they still protect the abusers, be it bullies in its schools, pedophiles or priests having affairs with parishioners. They have been doing this for ever. The Bishops have complete control of the dioceses and the archbishop total control.

Certain orders of Nuns and priests escape this in some way. This being the order of Nuns formed by Mary McKillop after she was excomunicated because she would not obey the bishop. Her order is answerable to only the Mother House as I think the Vincentians to their head house. This allows them to make their own rules and regulations. This means the Bishop has no say in the running of Stannies. This lets him off the hook. Pell on the other hand is responsible for everything that happens in Australia but if you write him a letter he will tell you that it is not his reponsibility.

When it comes to court cases, the church doesn't mind spending big as long as they get off. After all they have amassed a fortune and pay no taxes. They can afford it. They bring in the down right dirty fighters who will dig and dig until they find some little thing that they can attack with. They have no ethics when it comes to fighting court cases. I really do not think they care so much about the money as long as they win. They can not have the church falling into disrepute and having parishoners leaving. This would diminish their positon and power in the country and it is all about power and power corrupts.

The Bathurst Dioceses will let Peter Dresser go because he is clearly a nut case. He can just drop off the face of the earth. The Vincentians are the ones that will have to fight for the 3 from Bathurst because it was in their school that the offenses took place. As you have noticed, Pell has not commented. He doesn't have to. He thinks this can not touch him.

I think there is one thing we have to remember about the Church and all things that are powerful.
"Shit always floats to the top"
With this in mind what hope do the complainers have but I say go ahead and complain. Keep annoying the crap out of them

Perhaps the government can demand a fund be set up, like James Hardy's for asbestos victims , where the church has to put in millions of dollars for current and future compensation cases.

That would encourage them to "root out the evil" perhaps.? There is a precedent set there, although in another industry.

Would that work?

Its time to start cutting out the rot, I can feel it in my bones.

We need to look at the church's insurance company, who are they?

Are the lawyers employed by the Church or the insurance company, or both at different times?

Below is an extract from the Sydney Morning herald. The link is at the bottom of the article.

This is a state government that is now broke, and must have known it was broke when it did this.

Is a government that is so aligned to the catholic church, really going to support radical change that will upset bishops and George Pell?

If the government insists on not taxing the church, but is happy to deliver tax payers money to this type of celebration, will it take the responsibility to compensate victims?

Of course compensation is just a small part of all this really. What we need is transparency in this organisation, so we can stop the abuse.

Will the catholic parlimentarians stand up and demand change in the Catholic Church, so this abuse can be delt with properly on an ongiong basis?

I bet all those people in Wollongong and other cities thought "Well, thats an end to abuse in the Church", when the abuse was uncovered down there.

We all saw "The Devils Playground" and thought, "Well thats being dealt with".

Of course it wasn't and it isnt. These abuses will continue to infiltrate every organisation they can, as they always have, and until the church has meaningful responses, they will live in its auspices, hidden away, and continue abusing.

We need government intervention.



Taxpayers' $95m bill for World Youth Day

AN ELEVENTH-hour compensation deal worth $41 million for the racing industry from taxpayers has given the Catholic Church the green light to stage the World Youth Day Papal Mass at Randwick Racecourse.

The State and Federal governments have agreed to provide $15 million each to meet the huge costs of relocating 700 horses, trainers and auxiliary services from Randwick during a planned 10-week shutdown of Sydney's premier racetrack.

As well, $10 million - split between the two governments - will be set aside in case of track damage, to ensure it is returned in a pristine state to the Australian Jockey Club for its spring carnival.

The compensation deal blows out the projected cost of World Youth Day - which stands at more than $100 million - and guarantees taxpayers will be underwriting the six-day religious event staged by the Catholic Church to the tune of at least $95 million.

The Prime Minister's pledge of $20 million to help relocate racehorses from Randwick is on top of $35 million that his Government has already committed towards security and visa costs.

The Deputy Premier, John Watkins, defended the State Government's contribution of $40 million-plus, saying that the event was worth at least $150 million to NSW

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/taxpayers-95m-bill-for-world-youth-day/2007/11/15/1194766868787.html

The Catholic Insurance Ltd employees solicitors for different things. In 2001-3 they employed Astridge and Murray for a Work Cover claim.

They play very dirty and denied all claims. They reminded me of the Insurance Company in the movie with Matt Damon "The Rainmaker" The Drs they employed knew only one thing and it didn't matter if they knew they were writing lies, that is what the Insurance company paid them huge mounts to do. Dr. Wendy Roberts was one of those Drs. I feel she is the same one that Tor saw.

For the Catholic Church is all about getting off no matter how they do it. They really don't care about Spillane, Dwyer and Gaven as people. They just want it done with. Found not guilty so that the reputation of the church is not tarnished. They admit to nothing. They cannot be challenged or so they think.

Reading 'The Observer" Bathurst Dioceses paper and they have a section where you can fill in a form to say you want to leave money to the church when you die.

If this isn't all about money I don;t know what is. Fancy advertising. This is not a church where people can just go and pray and be a part of. You have to pay. And what do they do with the money?

The Catholic Church is RICH or POOR?!?!

http://tor.id.au/article.php?story=20081201014606632

---

.

The Book of Truth

When discussing the attempt to discern the true total financial position of the Catholic Church there are three things that immediately make the task extremely difficult:

Find out more about your Church
http://tor.id.au/index.php?topic=20081201020421481

---

.

Calculate Your God Delusion Index

http://www.youtube.com/swf/l.swf?swf=http%3A//s.ytimg.com/yt/swf/cps-vfl66122.swf&video_id=jCX0JJ16dFM&rel=1&showsearch=1&eurl=http%3A//www.illuminatiarchives.org/category/religion/&iurl=http%3A//i3.ytimg.com/vi/jCX0JJ16dFM/hqdefault.jpg&sk=U7agfygg7BcwPhqN8uhHFmy3TD8-DCHGC&use_get_video_info=1&load_modules=1&fs=1&hl=en

---

.

A Catholic Living with L.A.
Apr 6, 2009
That Fresno case
On April 3 a jury in Fresno, by a vote of 9-3, found the diocese there not liable for a priest's sexual abuse of two boys decades ago, the Los Angeles Times reported last Saturday (click on this post's title).

Cardinal Roger Mahony of Los Angeles testified during the trial, says the Times, that when he was a diocesan official in Fresno he was not told about the abuse, and that another official of the diocese was in charge of personnel matters.

posted by Quintero at 9:49 PM

http://onelacatholic.blogspot.com/2009/04/that-fresno-case.html

---

.

Clergyman back in the pulpit as suspension is lifted

7:50am Saturday 4th April 2009


A HAMPSHIRE vicar who was arrested and questioned on suspicion of historic child sexual abuse has been released without charge.

As revealed in the Daily Echo, the Rev Canon Barry Fry was arrested over allegations of sexual abuse and indecent assault relating to a child.

The Southampton vicar was questioned at a pre-arranged interview at a Southampton police station in February.

He was not charged with any offence and police have now dropped their investigation into the matter, because of a lack of evidence.

A spokesman for Hampshire police said: “Following investigations, no further action is being taken against the man.”

Diocese bosses suspended the 59-year-old Church of England vicar at St Barnabas Church in Lodge Road, Southampton, from his duties in February as a result of the allegations, and services at the church were temporarily taken by a replacement.

He was banned from exercising or performing any rite or duty of the office of priest until the police investigations were concluded.

Mr Fry, who is well known in the Southampton church community and lives in the vicarage in Rose Road opposite his church, has now been reinstated and is back leading the services at the church.

A spokesman for the Diocese of Winchester, to which Mr Fry’s parish church belongs, said: “In line with the terms of the Clergy Discipline Measure 2003, under which the suspension of Rev Canon Barry Fry was imposed, it was duly lifted following the decision by the police that no further action would be taken.”

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/4266219.No_charges_against_Southampton_vicar_over_sex_allegations/

---

.

I know this is slightly off the topic, but I couldn't believe the Catholic Education Dept saying that they wont support Rugby League if these group sex scandles keep happening,

I thought all those good catholic boys learnt that behaviour from the priests and brothers!! Maybe, its because they keep getting caught?

The similarities between and NRL and The Catholic Church, in hiding, denying, then defending with all their might, institutionalized sexual abuse and trying to circumvent the legal system of the country is quite startleing